Same thread as last time, just talking to a different guy now. vastolord_9266 is his name.
Him:
Simple, it takes several days for the ninja, even full-powered Naruto, to move from one nation to another without teleportation. If we take your logic, Naruto and other characters move at the speed of light. How do basic humans live and dogs, cats, chickens, lions, tigers, and others live in this world? And why would ninjas wage war in a world literally 100-10,000x the size of Earth? With infinite resources?
I hope to receive a constructive opinion, thank you my friend, have a good day.
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Me:
"Good day to you as well. First off, if you read the nine part refutation that I gave to True_Devil, I already answered half of your question. Ninjas are low stamina glass cannons that tire out after a couple of jutsu. Even an Elite Jonin like kakashi, who despite being memed on as having no chakra, is still an Elite Jonin with the requisite chakra pool to match; even he can only perform several jutsu before running on empty as proven by his fight with Pain. Imagine the other ninjas? Not only that, but ninjas are supposed to be stealthy and not attract attention in order to complete their missions. Traveling at full speed is just asking to get surrounded while tired. Clearly not the smartest thing to do.
Also a full-powered Naruto did in fact travel to the other side of the world in less than a minute in order to have the climatic final show down with Sasuke at the valley of the end.
As for the normal humans and animals? well I already established that ninjas don't travel the world at full speed to not attract attention from enemy ninjas. This would apply to not attracting the attention of the normies either since any competent ninja could extract info from them with a bit of interrogation and/or bribery.
As for the size of the Naruto world? we don't really know for sure but it is probably somewhere around the size of our real world Earth or maybe a bit bigger. I can hypothesize this because the planet that the ninja world is situated on is called Earth and has identical cosmology including identical planets and constellations."
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Him:
"Speed of light 299,792,458 m/s 12,700 km size of the earth
It takes 1 second at the speed of light to circle the earth 7 times
If it took Naruto 1 minute, who do you think moved at the speed of light? To go from A>>>>>>B, that means that the planet is theoretically 60x7, 420x bigger than Earth, so 2 questions: how do humans normally travel from village to village that are at least 100,000 km away, 100,000 km away, and why do ninjas fight over resources in such a large world? Take our world as an example. If our Earth were 10x 100x bigger, we could easily be 10 billion, 100 billion, 1000 billion, and all live with a lot of food, houses, in short, immense resources. The world of Naruto is ruled by normal humans who pay ninja to do work for them, that's how the ninja world works, and no, no one moves at the speed of light, and if you see a character using light-type powers, it's just photons. My friend, with light, you can create mirages and become invisible, and yet it doesn't make it faster. Don't confuse using (light) with (the speed of light in space)."
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Me:
"Your argument boils down to this: " This guys claims Naruto is capable of moving at light speed, therefore he is ALWAYS moving at light speed. Based on this we can calculate that the Naruto planet is a trillion kilometers because it takes him a few minutes to go the bath room." Do you see how retarded you sound? Why would you assume that a given character is always moving at their maximum speed? Do you run everywhere at full tilt? Especially when you are about to get into a life and death fight with your rival and you need to conserve stamina? It's clear that you either didn't read my exchange with True_Devil at all or if you did, you skim read it and missed everything. Go back and read the whole thing slowly and carefully(including my nine part refutation) and then really think through your arguments. Say your arguments out loud to yourself, that's a technique I use quite a loot.
As for the rest of your response, it hinges on the first part which I've already refuted so I'll leave it here.
side note: photons is light and light is photons. This is just basic physics. photons move at light speed because light is made up of photons. Also the speed of light doesn't change regardless of where it is, even in a vacuum or in the atmosphere. Photons/light have no mass and therefore no friction to slow it down, meaning that light travels at the same speed regardless of circumstance. It is quite literally a universal constant. Again, basic physics."
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Him:
"Thus, the speed of light is at its maximum in a vacuum, as in space, because there is no matter to obstruct it. It travels at nearly 300,000 km per second. That's almost 8 times around the Earth in a single second!
I didn't insult you. Dude, and otherwise basic physics dictates that like sound, light has a speed that fluctuates. Basic physics, my retarded friend :)
The photon is the quantum of energy associated with electromagnetic waves, which has certain characteristics of an elementary particle. In quantum field theory, the photon is an excitation of the quantum electrodynamic field and therefore the mediating particle of the electromagnetic interaction.
A photon is not just light (BASIC PHYSICS) :))))))))
And yes I read all your comments with devil
You have never really answered his question, you base yourself on theories based on your perception, you have never provided a single real or concrete proof, take the Raikaige who are among the fastest characters in the Naruto anime who boost their speed and reflexes with lightning, what is the point of boosting with lightning if the Kage can fight at the speed of light?
Go to any forum and say that Zabusa Haku Kakashi moves at the speed of light, 1% of people like me will try to explain to you that it is not the case and 99% will insult you."
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Me:
"Notice how you didn't actually address my argument and responded to a side note that had nothing to do with anything? Let's say I'm wrong about basic physics and you are the super omega brain chad and I'm the pea brained dunce. This doesn't actually refute my argument at all. All you did was deflect and evade. Also, I didn't call you retarded, I called your ARGUMENT retarded friend ;D."
This is a logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority". Just because some random forum disagrees with me, doesn't make them right. they need to back up their claims with evidence like i did in my book." (in response to "random forum response" Argument)
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Him:
"Even worse in ninja fights how to hit another ninja with fire lightning water earth how to hit a person who moves 1000x times faster than your attack???
Even worse, how could the ninja who move at the speed of light not dodge Madara's meteorites??????
The simple fact that ninja can't dodge a meteorite proves that ninja are slow."
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Me:
"It's clear that you really did skim read everything. Before my debate with True_Devil, I directed him to click on my profile and read the first chapter of my book "Power scaling for dummies" in it I outline my argument for light speed narutoverse scaling and include citiations refering to the canon light novels and data book statements. every claim I made was backed up by the author, not something I pulled from my ass
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Him:
"True" (in response to "appeal to authority" rebuttal)
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Me:
"Because the meteor was also moving at light speed. Random special jonin can fire attacks at light speed. You think Madara can't? As for why the meteors didn't blow up the earth? Two Kage-level ninja(Onoki and Gaara) were there to tank the blow, and absorb the impact thereby mitigating the resulting damage. " (in response to "Madara's meteorites" argument)
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Him:
"Only Naruto during his fight against Madara dodged an attack that went at the speed of light. You can search in the Naruto database to check." (likely a general over-all response, not rebutting anything in particular)
Bro..(Came with shocked turtle image) (in response to my rebuttal for "Madara's meteorites" argument)
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Me:
"As I've just stated in my previous response, in the canon "Kakashi Retsuden" light novel, it was stated verbatim that a special jonin's ninjutsu are fired off at light speed. This includes all element types." (in response to "elements can't hit guy 1000x faster" argument)
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Him:
"Dude, at worst, look at the database of the manga made by the author himself, only Naruto during the fourth war dodged Madara's attack which goes at the speed even Madara does not go at the speed of light..."
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Me:
"This is a logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Incredulity". It occurs when someone dismisses a claim or argument simply because they cannot personally understand or believe it. This reasoning is flawed because a person's inability to imagine something does not affect its truth." (in response to "Bro... with the turtle image" argument" )
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Him:
"They didn't write Kishimoto so not canon my boss" (In response to my "Light Novel Speed" argument)
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Me:
"I addressed that feat in my book "Power scaling for dummies" in it I believe the third or fourth paragraph. I mentioned it but disregarded it because there was much better evidence from earlier in the series and that feat was talked about to death. Also this helps my argument that Naruto Characters are lightspeed even if it is way later in the story. Are you conceding the debate?" (in response the "Light Fang Naruto feat" argument)
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Him:
"In short, if we follow Kishimoto, the author of Naruto, only Naruto moves at the speed of light and only Madara has an attack that also moves at the speed of light."
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Me:
"I'm going to assume you tried to respond to the special jonin feat and not the appeal to incredulity since it makes more logical sense. Continuing on, not everything in Naruto has to be made by Kishimoto directly to be considered Canon. As an example, If you didn't know, Sasuke was an invention of Shonen Jump, not Kishimoto. They wanted a rival character so they could appeal more broadly to audiences and Sasuke was the result. Also, the novels were supervised and approved by Kishimoto and are apart of the official Naruto timeline."
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Him:
"I just re-looked at all the databooks and at no point has the word speed of light been used.
I was wrong, even Naruto doesn't go at light speed and Madara doesn't have an attack that goes at that speed either."
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Me:
"I'm goin to use your logic against you: "If we follow Kishimoto, the author of Naruto, Haku is light speed because the data books say so and they were written by him. And anyone that scales above Haku is also light speed or above as a result" See? you just refuted yourself and didn't even know it. Kishimoto isn't your friend in this debate, appealing to him isn't going to help you." (in response to "In short, if we follow Kishimoto, the author of Naruto" argument)
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Him:
"I just looked, yes, Kishimoto authorized fanfiction, but nowhere did he say it was canon"
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Me:
"I'm going to find the data book scans. In the mean time, here's an official novelization"
Here I posted a picture of the novel excerpt where it confirms Haku's light speed scaling.
(In response to "I just tooootally re-looked at all the databooks, trust me bro" argument)
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Him:
"I literally just sent you the link to the databook and there is no mention of the word speed of light." (there was no link :p)
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Me:
"where is the link?" (again, didn't post any)
"Here's one scan. Unfortunately, I couldn't fit the whole thing cause of webnovel."
posted a picture of the data book scan along with the response
"Here's the second one. The last one was from data book 1 and this one is from either data book 3 or 4, cant remember."
Did it again here
"I suppose this is my victory. Finally, the nightmare can end. If I was an uchiha, I would've awakened my mangekyo from the sheer stress of refuting bad arguments"
Had a pic of a relieved dog here
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Him:
"??????????"
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Me:
"seems I awakened in the end anyway. I'm going to let the world feel pain!!!"
posted a pic of Kakashi's mangekyo
(was messing around here since in my mind I had just posted irrefutable proof of my claim that he would have no choice to accept, as you are about to see, he didn't see it that way)
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Him:
"And otherwise haku moves at the speed of light in his mirror gengutsu a gengutsu and an illusion dude" (response to me declaring victory)
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Me:
"lol, just doing a victory lap. don't you understand the euphoria of meaningless internet clout!!!???" (still being silly)
posted a funny pic
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Him:
"All the characters in Naruto in their own illusions can move at the speed of light literally in illusions they are like gods"
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Me:
"yes, you've fallen under my genjutsu"
posted itachi mangekyo pic
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Him:
He just posted a SpongeBob meme with the "bullshit" caption
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Me:
"ok, ok I'll be serious again and get back to refuting your really bad arguments."
spidey meme pic
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Him:
"I'm waiting for your arguments and your proof because for now you just sent me a screenshot for kaku in his gengutsu moving at the speed of light"
posted a khaby lame meme
"Gengustsu="
posted another pic about an optical illusion spiral
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Me:
"It seems you have a serious aversion to reading cause nowhere in the data book scans that I showed you was the word "genjutsu" or "illusion" even present. I'll show it to you again, so you can actually read it this time. Hell, I'll even take to time to do a direct quote cause why not?
"For Haku, it's possible to move between the mirrors at the speed of light."
Direct word for word quote from the data book."
reposted data book scan pic
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Him:
"And honestly being able to move fast in an illusion where you are literally god no feat
Bro (mirrors) light (mirrors) light lol?"
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Me:
"If your talking about the "phantom world" thing, a reflection in the mirror is literally a phantom world. Phantom world = world that doesn't seem real. doesn't mean it's a genjutsu, that is the farthest logical reach I've seen you take in this whole debate"
(here I just realized why the idiot keeps ranting and raving about illusion this or genjutsu that. a throwaway line in the databook used flowery language and called Haku's mirror jutsu a "phantom World". He took that to mean that it was literally a genjutsu. Yeah somehow in this guy's mind Haku managed to acquire a genjutsu so powerful it could warp reality at an unconditional cost, like izanagi on steroids with none of the drawbacks or even a cost. Hell, if this were true it might actually be stronger than Infinite Tsukuyomi! Universal+ Haku anyone?? complete clown. Of course although I was thinking this, I didn't actually say it to him. When in a debate you need to maintain a modicum of decorum. Also its not like I hated him or anything, he's just a passionate and stubborn fool, not a dickhead.)
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Him:
"The Demonic Ice Mirrors This is a secret technique of his clan requiring the use of the Hyoton[19]. Haku conjures up several mirrors all around his opponent. He then enters one of the mirrors and his reflection appears in the others[19]. He then moves very quickly from one mirror to another, attacking with his senbon. The opponent doesn't have time to see him act[20], believing himself to be surrounded by clones all attacking simultaneously. According to his own words, he moves so fast that it seems as if his victim is motionless[21].
His mirrors are very strong: Sasuke was unable to melt them with his Katon[22]. Only Naruto, using Kyubi's chakra, was able to break one[23]. The best way to escape would be for an ally to attack outside of the technique, but Haku remains vigilant and manages to intercept some of these attacks[20].
This technique is so formidable that until his final battle, no one was able to discover its secret.[24] However, it has a weakness: it requires a large amount of Chakra, so he cannot maintain it indefinitely.[25]
He can also use his ice mirrors as a means of transportation. He can even conjure them up in the sky. For example, he was able to take Sai by surprise and destroy his inkbird, then return to dry land without the slightest damage"
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Me:
"Even if you were somehow right and the data book statement I just sent in is talking about a genjutsu(despite how much a reach it is) what are you goin to do about the novelization statement or the other databook statement the first one includes flowery language to make it entertaining but this one is cut and dry.(I feel like discount madara "what will you do about the second one")
posted the other data book scan.
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Him:
"YOU HAVE A BIG INVERSION WITH PHYSICS A MIRROR REFLECTS LIGHT AND SO STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF A ROOM WITH LOTS OF MIRRORS WILL REFLECT YOUR IMAGE BETWEEN ALL THE MIRRORS THEREBY THE TERM ILLUSIONS DUDE Haku can literally teleport between these mirrors hence the phrase speed of light dude"
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Me:
"this doesn't support or refute either of our positions. it's a red herring." (in response to his copy/paste of the fourth data book)
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Him:
"In France, any child at the start of secondary school at 10-11 years old knows the principle of a mirror, man.
If you can move from one mirror to another, that means you are traveling at the speed of light. Your image from one mirror to another is already traveling at the speed of light."
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Me:
"This makes no sense whatsoever. Haku is literally able to go INSIDE the mirror as if entering another dimension. If it was just an illusion with no real substance, then the mirror jutsu would be weak as shit and not worth using, just a waste of chakra and time. I don't think the word "illusion" means what you think it means. "illusion" means "false" "unreal" "not Real".(in response to "YOU HAVE A BIG INVERSION WITH PHYSICS" argument)
"The funny, thing is that you are actually arguing my point for me. Finally! you get it!" (In response to "If you can move from one mirror to another" argument")
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Him:
"haku outside the mirrors with his body made of human flesh moving only 3x-10x faster than average humans
I'm trying to explain to you that any Naruto character who used a technique similar to Haku would do the same thing."
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Me:
"Exactly, Haku is able to move between mirrors at light speed. The fact that Kakashi was able to move a third of the distance it took for Haku to move at full speed in the same amount of time, makes Kakashi 1/3 the speed of light. From there all it is is basic power scaling to eventually reach light speed meta. you are finally getting it! Hallelujah!"
(further responding to the "If you can move from one mirror to another" argument)
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Him:
"1. Misinterpreting what one perceives. Being the victim of an illusion. 2. Appearance devoid of reality. This small garden gave the illusion of freshness" (in response to my "Haku mirror dimension" argument) (no idea what the fuck he is talking about)
"?????????" (in response to "Kakashi being 1/3c" argument)
"No connection, you compare Kakashi's speed and Haku's reaction speed." (in response to "Kakashi being 1/3c" argument)
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Me:
"this is irrelevant now, we've already got you to finally concede that haku moves through his mirror at light speed. no takes backsies"
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Him:
"Minato and Tobirama used the same flying Raijin technique, yet Minato was much faster thanks to better reflexes" (no idea what this has to do with anything at all)
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Me:
"yes, if you had read my book "power scaling for dummies" I outlined the circumstances of hakus death and distance kakashi traveled before killing him through pixel counting calculations" (Response to "?????????")
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Him:
"By taking measurements relating the displacement of the two light beams and the angular velocity of the rotating mirror, the speed of light was found to be (3.09±0.204)x108 m/s, which is 2.7% of the value defined for the speed of light"
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Me:
"I'll outline it again for you" (response to "No connection, you compare Kakashi's speed and Haku's reaction speed.")
"Direct excerpt from the book: ["Ok Ok, maybe Haku can move at light speed if he wanted to because of his mirrors, how does this prove that Naruto characters are light speed or even in that tier in general!?"
I'm glad you asked! To explain this he just have to examine how Haku dies.
So, Kakashi and Zabuza are doing round 2 of their battle and after a brief back and forth Kakashi summons his ninja dogs who skewer Zabuza with their teeth, holding him in place. Kakashi then runs at Zabuza planning to unleash the fastest method to a person's heart, Chidori.
Haku, seeing his pseudo-adoptive father/master, about to die rushes in at his full speed to tank the blow and die in his place. Doing some calculations, we find out that Kakashi traveled roughly a third of the distance that Haku did.]"
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Him:
"YOU'RE RIGHT HAKU, HE DOES MOVE AT 2.7% OF THE SPEED OF LIGHT THANKS TO THE MIRROR, BUT 2.7% IS STILL NOT THE TRUE SPEED OF LIGHT, SO ME WHO RUNS 100 METERS IN 13 SECONDS, I ALSO MOVE AT 0.001 OF THE SPEED OF LIGHT, SO🥸🥸🥸" (I think he started going insane from being utterly destroyed. Every point he has made so far has been completely refuted.)
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Me:
"Unfortunately, I don't have the annotated pics with me but here is the calc anyway :
zabuza = 35 px = 1.83 m panel height = 387 px 2atan(tan(70/2)(35/387)) degrees = 7.2469782439 Distance = 14.449 m T= d/v T= 14.449 / 299792458 T= 0.0000000481966761 seconds
zabuza = 124 px = 1.83 m distance = 326 px = 4.81112903226 m s= d/t S=4.81112903226 / 0.0000000481966761 s = 0.3329731492681514 c
This would mean kakashi's striking speed is: 33% speed of light (0.33c)"
"Also, this is a fictional world with fictional characters in a fictional setting with fictional powers, appealing to real world physics doesn't help you in this debate. They can be used as a reference for power scaling but nothing more. Does resurrecting the dead, flying, teleporting, talking animals, kaiju, or alien gods sound scientific to you? science won't get you out of this one."
"The evidence is clear, the proof is in the pudding, science cant help you, physics can't help you, caps lock can't help you. you've already conceded that Haku moves at light speed. just accept defeat gracefully, there is no need to grasp at straws."
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Him:
"Indeed you are right all the characters move at the speed of light even my grandmother in denbulator moves at the speed of light
all people all anime all film all serie all book all all all all speed light"
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Me:
"now, now. no need to be belligerent. it's not like we are mortal enemies or whatever. we are just two passionate anime fans who like to argue
it's been a fun if a little frustrating debate. no hard feelings right? let's shake on it!"
we then posted a few memes back and forth and ended it on amiable terms
End of debate.