I was in a debate with some guy in the comments of chapter 1 of "DC: The Template System" called "True_Devil". This is the archive. (Also for some reason, paragraph differentiations don't translate when copy and pasted from comments to Inkstone so I add those back in manually. They won't be edited any further for preservation purposes)
The debate goes as follows:
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Him:
"no, no one in Naruto is even close to light speed, the nations in the Naruto world are not that far and the jutsus are slow asf so if ninjas were able to travel at light speed then learning ninjutsus would be useless. Characters like Ten Tails Madara, Ten Tails Obito, SO6P Naruto, Night Guy were faster than lightning speed not light speed. It's so ridiculous that people think light speed is some bs low level hax. Missions would not take days or infiltration would not need strategy if ninjas were anywhere near light speed, Minato was a teleporter which is being equivalent to being light speed was feared all over the Naruto verse. None in the series even came close to the speed of teleportation, so how tf can we say they are light speed? some might say Raikage was close to Minato in terms of speed, but yeah he was close to him in terms of "speed" but NOT to "teleportation". If you think any character in Naruto is light speed then watch Flash and say can any Naruto character catch him? No, no one can even see him forget about catching him. The sheer glaze on Naruto characters being light speed on every online anime platform is insane, even the og author never said bs like this but people sure love to glaze it a lot. Madara Prime was only supersonic and it's me being generous."
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My response:
"tell you what, click on my profile, and read this new book I posted two days ago called "power scaling for dummies" the first chapter tackles speed scaling for naruto. read it, then report back."
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Him:
"lol I did read your chapter of how people underestimate the verse and even saw your databook posts and also saw the kanji version as well but can you answer to my question? I have placed my own fair share of disagreement for your argument because by your logic I can say low level fodder from any random anime scales mftl+ . I think you people who scale Naruto higher fail to realize that characters need to show their speed in such a way that it's possible to count as a hax, just narrative alone won't do it. Like Sukuna from JJK in narrative is powerful enough to destroy the entire world, but can he do it? No he can't it would literally take him years to kills all people and about destroying the entire planet it would likely take decades. As usual in Naruto according to you even in early episodes Haku used Mirror jutsu and had an "attack speed" narrated as "light speed" and later Itachi's water bullet again narrated as "light speed" and Kirin which in the anime took ages to manifest and attack is "supposedly" "light speed" well okay I would accept it as it is fiction but you are ignoring my counter facts - How tf ninjas take days and months to visit from one nation to another nation? If a ninja is light speed then why do they don't do it easily? You said these jutsus are light speed right? Then what about other jutsus like Great Fire Ball, Rasengan, Great Wind Breakthrough? If ninjas were light speed then why do these snail like slow jutsus exist? What is there purpose? You can't possibly say that you can hit a guy who like Flash (DC) with a fking Great Fire Ball justu now can you? It doesn't makes any sense. Animes like OPM, DB, Bleach, Tensura, MODKA, ID, Overlord, etc has some constant hax pace, meanwhile in Naruto the narrative is like a rollercoaster, sometimes it's said to be light speed and in another episode a fking genin dodges it like it's some child's frat. Narrative said 9 Tails can destroy the entire world but never showcased any such power. Mofo if left alone would take around a week or a month to destroy the planet 😂. The proofs you mentioned has too many loopholes and seriously saying as someone who ended all the episode in the childhood and obsessed with ninjutsus and super sayian and Bankai you can't outrank me in understanding these three universes as I mastered these 3 since I was a kid. I would acknowledge your facts if you are able to counter my facts, show me how they are light speed yet take days to go some nearby village on a mission. They are light speed yet fall for Great Fireball Jutsu, They are light speed but gets hit by a rasenshuriken, if they are light speed how tf they get hit by a kunai or shuriken. Why no one in the series entered "bullet time" like Quick Silver if they were light speed. Kakashi is the biggest plot hole in the series. Chidori is 1/3rd of lightning speed?no it's not. Doesn't this alone prove you that a guy (Raikage) with lightning armor goes the same speed as a guy with a lil lightning spear in his hand (Kakashi). Anyway the fact you put that 8 Gates even make these characters go beyond the speed of light is just straight of brainrot.8 Gates doesn't allows you to use other jutsus while you tap on to it, and the so called boost from it was the same speed or a bit faster than Raikage and I'm talking about the Death Gate. So something like first Gate doesn't gives you speed enough to make you anywhere near supersonic. So eight gates fact is also wrong.
Boruto might come close or maybe be considered light speed but it still fluctuates a lot, which is annoying.
Look at animes like DB, Bleach, Tensura, MODKA, GoH, Guran Laggan, Instant Death, etc these series maintain the hax and stats and keep it stable and don't fall far behind the narrative. Narrative is way different and hax is way different from each other. Because the same narrative said "Kaguya is a goddess" and we found out it's a girl who ate a fruit and went crazy 🤦♂️. She doesn't even have a hax which comes close to a God. Random fkers like Yuuki from Tensura can wrap reality and Grammy from Bleach can just spawn universes just like breathing and here we are having a "narrative" of a goddess who can't even break a seal and get out 🤦♂️.
Lastly I would say it's not your fault it's Kishimoto's fault for having so many loopholes and making fans struggle to understand tf is going on. Anyway have a nice day good night it's 2 am in here and I can't go Bankai or Super Sayian to keep my eyes open 😂"
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My response:
"what an absolute behemoth of a wall of text. It was an absolute nightmare to read and try to comprehend. Anyway, it's clear you didnt read the chapter carefully enough, probably skim read then rushed back to argue. you're great "if they are light speed then why don't characters travel around the world in a day" and was already answered near the bottom of the chapter. Go read the chapter again very carefully. Also, Flash, aka Wally West out ran the concept of death itself and is faster than teleportation. He has immeasurable to irrelevant speed, I'm not sure why you keep implying that I somehow need to prove that the Narutoverse is faster than the flash. The flash is octillions of times faster than light at the very least and is part of a completely different verse entirely. stop bringing him up. Anyway, I'll edit the chapter later to host refutations to your arguments so I'll let you know when it's live. hopefully you can let go of whatever bias is in your head and look at the information objectively."
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Me:
"Actually, you know what, I'll do both. I'll edit my chapter to host refutations to your arguments, AND I'll reply to you here.
You: "I have placed my own fair share of disagreement for your argument because by your logic I can say low level fodder from any random anime scales mftl+ . "
Refutation#1: No, you can't use my logic to prove that background fodder from some other verse is mftl+ because the arguments I use is based on solid evidence from the manga, anime, light novels, databooks, and direct statements from the author. For your claim to be true, I would have to be making up evidence from no where. "
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Me:
"you: "I think you people who scale Naruto higher fail to realize that characters need to show their speed in such a way that it's possible to count as a hax, just narrative alone won't do it."
Refutation#2: This statement makes absolutely no sense. Speed is a stat/attribute not a hax. Hax is a term for a special ability that can bypass/transcend the target's stats. Example: Kamui is a hax ability because it can ignore durability entirely."
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Me:
"You: "Like Sukuna from JJK in narrative is powerful enough to destroy the entire world, but can he do it? No he can't it would literally take him years to kills all people and about destroying the entire planet it would likely take decades."
Refutation#3: JJK has absolutely nothing to do with the debate, if you're going to try an internal critique of my argument to test the logic then stick to the topic which is Naruto scaling. Appealing to JJK won't help you, Gege isn't the author of Naruto. As for the actual argument, I am not well versed in JJK scaling so I won't comment. based on your track record so far though, you are probably wrong anyway. "
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Me:
"You: "As usual in Naruto according to you even in early episodes Haku used Mirror jutsu and had an "attack speed" narrated as "light speed" and later Itachi's water bullet again narrated as "light speed" and Kirin which in the anime took ages to manifest and attack is "supposedly" "light speed" well okay I would accept it as it is fiction but you are ignoring my counter facts - How tf ninjas take days and months to visit from one nation to another nation? If a ninja is light speed then why do they don't do it easily? You said these jutsus are light speed right? Then what about other jutsus like Great Fire Ball, Rasengan, Great Wind Breakthrough? If ninjas were light speed then why do these snail like slow jutsus exist? What is there purpose? You can't possibly say that you can hit a guy who like Flash (DC) with a fking Great Fire Ball justu now can you? It doesn't makes any sense. Animes like OPM, DB, Bleach, Tensura, MODKA, ID, Overlord, etc has some constant hax pace, meanwhile in Naruto the narrative is like a rollercoaster, sometimes it's said to be light speed and in another episode a fking genin dodges it like it's some child's frat."
Refutation#4: Damn, this is quite the doozy, did you really need all that to make two points? Talk about not being concise. Anyways, like I said in my other response, I already answered this question in Chapter 1 of my book, near the end of the page. I just going to copy paste the sections you didn't read
Exhibit1: [(1) Ninjas seem to have severe stamina issues, just look at Kakashi during the pain fight, a few jutsu and he's out of chakra. Traveling at full speed would likely leave them tired and surrounded by enemies due to the commotion of traveling the world at relativistic to light speed. There is also the concern of having to navigate all the varied terrain of the world. This is most likely why ninja's cruise at car-like speeds and don't run at full speed across the world, to conserve energy and not attract attention. They likely only use their true speed when in short range combat.]
Exhibit2: [Kakashi Retsudan novel states that special jonin can fire attacks that hit light speed]
Granted, Exhibit2 is rather short and I didn't include direct proof(didn't think I needed it) but it is a fact that those light novels are approved by Kishimoto and included in the official timeline, and are therefore canon. Continuing on, if special jonin can fire off jutsu that move at light speed then its safe to assume that those random jutsu like the Great Fireball and Great Breakthrough are included in the jutsu they can use since they are both c rank techniques and special jonin can easily acquire jutsu like them."
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Me:
"You: "Narrative said 9 Tails can destroy the entire world but never showcased any such power. Mofo if left alone would take around a week or a month to destroy the planet 😂."
Refutation #5: It's good that you know that one. I'm actually goin to use that statement from the databook to scale the level of AP of the Narutoverse in my next chapter. Anyways, I'm going to use your logic against you. "Goku has never destroyed a planet before therefore, he can't" or "That guy can't actually stab me in the face because he's never showcased the ability to". I hope this internal critique of your logic has awakened you to just how retarded this argument is."
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Me:
"You: "The proofs you mentioned has too many loopholes and seriously saying as someone who ended all the episode in the childhood and obsessed with ninjutsus and super sayian and Bankai you can't outrank me in understanding these three universes as I mastered these 3 since I was a kid."
Refutation #6: This is a logical fallacy known as Appeal to Anecdote. In order for an argument to be valid you need to appeal to something other than yourself. If you were to appeal to yourself for evidence you would be committing the logical fallacy known as Circular Reasoning. Basically, this section of your response is nothing but pure nonsense that can be utterly disregarded."
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Me:
"you: "Why no one in the series entered "bullet time" like Quick Silver if they were light speed."
Refutation#7: Minato quite literally did enter bullet time against the future fourth Raikage when they fought as jonin. And here you were talking about "You can't outrank me in knowledge! I've been watching anime since I was a kid!". Newsflash, so have I. You're not special. I started watching when I was 4. I'm 20 now."
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Me:
"You: "Anyway the fact you put that 8 Gates even make these characters go beyond the speed of light is just straight of brainrot. 8 Gates doesn't allows you to use other jutsus while you tap on to it, and the so called boost from it was the same speed or a bit faster than Raikage and I'm talking about the Death Gate. So something like first Gate doesn't gives you speed enough to make you anywhere near supersonic. So eight gates fact is also wrong. "
Refutation #8: I never said that you could use jutsu while performing the eight gates technique, not sure where you got that from. Gai using the eight gates released formation was able to bend space when using Night Guy. If you didn't know, to bend space you need to be at the speed of light or close to it at the very least. Also I never said that using the first gate directly gave you faster than light speed. What I actually said was that it gave you a 5x boost to all your stats like strength, speed, reaction time, reflexes, durability, etc. Based on this, any character approaching the speed of light would be able to go at or past it if they opened the first gate."
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Me:
"You: "Look at animes like DB, Bleach, Tensura, MODKA, GoH, Guran Laggan, Instant Death, etc these series maintain the hax and stats and keep it stable and don't fall far behind the narrative. Narrative is way different and hax is way different from each other. Because the same narrative said "Kaguya is a goddess" and we found out it's a girl who ate a fruit and went crazy 🤦♂️. She doesn't even have a hax which comes close to a God. Random fkers like Yuuki from Tensura can wrap reality and Grammy from Bleach can just spawn universes just like breathing and here we are having a "narrative" of a goddess who can't even break a seal and get out 🤦♂️."
Refutation #9: I'm gonna ignore the first three sentences of this paragraph since they are either irrelevant, stupid, or nonsense that I've already refuted. For someone who claims to be an Anime Wizard of sorts, you know shockingly little about Naruto. If you didn't know, Kaguya is able to create as many dimensions as she wants using Amenominaka. Each one is AT LEAST the size of a solar system because we can see a sun, planets, and moons in each dimension. There is also compelling evidence that suggests each of these dimensions maybe comparable to an actual universe in size. I don't know about you but creating things like that seems pretty god-like to me. Also, Kaguya's title as Rabbit Goddess is just that, a title. Hashirama's title as God of Shinobi doesn't make him an actual god, Einstein."
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Me:
"You: "Lastly I would say it's not your fault it's Kishimoto's fault for having so many loopholes and making fans struggle to understand tf is going on. Anyway have a nice day good night it's 2 am in here and I can't go Bankai or Super Saiyan to keep my eyes open 😂
Response: I would have to agree on this point, Kishimoto, like his idol before him, Akira Toriyama, is a discovery writer. This means that while he does have characters and plot points he wants to implement into the story before hand, he mostly writes without planning out the entire story. Have a good night and no hard feelings, I can sense that we are both simply passionate anime/manga fans that like to discuss the medium(s) we love."
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Him:
"Also any character who goes anywhere above the speed of sound can cause a sonic boom and we never saw anything like that in the entire series. lol and you say they are light speed, man the sheer wanking is nuts, no effects, no real proves all narrative and dodging, by your logic any character be it Naruto or any other anime if they can dodge light speed attacks then they are light speed in stats 🤦♂️. So a military guy who can dodge a bullet must be bullet speed right? 😂 Arguments like Naruto dodged Madara's light attack always gets into argument but the fact is nobody gives a shit that you actually don't need to be light speed to dodge attacks. Might guy who used the Death Gate was around or near light speed made Madara shit his pants and was bending space and time. So show me the proof of where in the anime or manga any character bended space and time with sheer speed stat? either it was a kekei gankai like Kamui which distorted space or it was straight up teleportation of Tobirama and Minato. Saying characters of this level are light speed is just dumb. You do know that a light speed attack from a character can literally cause mini nuke level destruction right? Where tf did characters show anything close to that? 🤦♂️ spare me this nonsense if you can't come up with "facts" light nove "statements" manga and databook "mentions" with zero "evidence" of character going light speed in the entire "anime" is just dumb. Also I'm bored asf writing the same thing so just go and show me or tell me the episode where a character moved light speed I will go watch it. But the episode must have effects like bending space and time, having sonic booms or anything that makes light speed feats relevant or even close to it. Or just straight up post a panel from the manga."